Re: [Sheflug] OT: Human nature, capitalism, socialism and NaomiKlein (was Re: RMS Talk)

[Will Newton <nospam [at] misconception.org.uk>]

On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Timothy Baldwin wrote:

> There have been no other socialist republics, the so called USSR (along with
> Cuba and Chille) was in fact state capitalist.

So basically you think the best idea is to use a system that has only been
tried in one country for a period of 3 years.
 
> > Yes. If his software was very very good indeed. Theoretically.
> > But then you are talking about a completely theoretical system of politics
> > anyway.
> 
> What do you say is completely theoretical about it?

Never successfully implemented. Ever.
 
> > "If we lived in mudhuts life would be peachy". Please, spare me.
> 
> I did not say life would be nice in a such a society, I was merely using it as
> an example that soc-economic systems can have a dramatic effect on personality.

And the lads in mud huts had no chief? No belief system that gave them
some unearthly god-head in place of a chief?
 
> If personality was indeed tightly controlled by instinct then a stratergy of
> cooperating with people who cooperate, as has been demonstrated by various
> computer simulations. However this would not allow for the existence of

Computer simulations??? Of human behaviour? I happen to be lectured by one
of the foremost AI researchers in the country. I'm sure he would be
impressed by such a simulation.

> capitalism, or that of Bill Gates, therefore one must conclude that personality
> is not genetically determined. At least 2 books have been written in support of
> this argument.

Nature vs. nurture. Not really my point. I'm sure Bill Gates is as good a
man as you or I, but the way he has been brought up, the way he has lived
his life, what he has seen (Nixon, Vietnam, the Reagan years, the Cold
War) have all conditioned him as well as other people of his age.

To condem Gates or the capitalist system is to miss the point. It is human
behaviour that has brought us this far, the same ideas have been repeated
time and again throughout history, there is no "system" to smash, only
human nature. Human nature is not some romantic ideal that makes us
superior to machines like in the movies, it is the animal instinct that
makes us impulsive, destructive, but also creative. 

> > Make that two then.
> 
> Her speech and "No Logo" were not contradictory. So what do you mean?
 
Is she a Marxist? Is she a crusty turning up at "smash the evil fat
cats" rallies? No. She is a smartly dressed young woman making a good
living out of selling books. Not particularly good ones either. 

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