Re: [Sheflug] Re: Hypercard

[Matt Fairtlough <nospam [at] blueyonder.co.uk>]

Well, this is all good clean fun, but maybe a bit off-topic?  Should we carry
on off-line?

Barrie Bremner wrote:

> Maybe I'm taking the piss with this comment, but what is wrong with
> doing everything by hand?

In a word: maintenance.  Yes, if you are creating a set of pages for the first
and only time, perhaps that is a viable option.  But even then, the design of
a site is at a higher level than HTML can express.  What are the main pages,
what are their common elements, how are the main links structured, are
questions that should be decided before writing anything in HTML.  I want a
design tool to help me do this, and produce rapid prototypes of a site to show
to my client.  Why not have the tool generate the HTML too, then?  I also have
very limited time available for Web design
and a client who wants a well-structured site and may wish to change her mind
about the structure of the site at a later date.  So if one branch, say, needs
to be relocated higher up the tree, there are a heap of links to move as well:
I don't want to have to change a single one by hand.  I don't want to have to
keep track of all the linked pages and which have been altered when I
re-publish.  In a nutshell, I want to be able to be lazy.

> Marking up a page shouldn't be too much of a chore, compared with
> generating the actual *content*...

Actually I get most of the content from my client, so marking up is the main
thing.

> Most of the pros I know code by hand using Vim or Emacs.

And it is said that Alan Turing was quite at home writing software in binary
:-)

> This is true of folks running database backed sites, and static ones.
>
> Saying your not bothered about databases might be worth
> reconsidering. The colloboration and customization that can be built into
> a db backed site can be worth the effort.
>
> Have a look at http://www.arsdigita.com/books/panda especially
> chapters 3 and 11 ->

thanks for the tip!

> Most Frontpage style programs I've come across:
>
> (a) put so much crap into the page, you'll never figure whats going on

or like I said, leave so much crap OFF the page you don't have a chance of
fixing anything that goes wrong; in fact the HTML generated by FrontPage is
perfectly comprehensible in itself, only it doesn't correspond to what you get
because of the magic stuff.

> and
>
> (b) aren't adhering to standards closely enough to work with anything
> but IE on Windows.

yep, I can believe it...but still I don't have the time to do the job with
xemacs.

BTW I'm not claiming to be a pro at web production--I am essentially doing a
voluntary job and starting to learn just how difficult it is to do well.

Matt.

--
 --------------------------------------------
| Matt Fairtlough       22 Harley Road       |
| Sheffield S11 9SE UK  tel. 0114 236 2067   |
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