Re: [Sheflug] How NAT Works

[Robin Wood <robin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Guess I'll just have to write code, play and see what happens.

On Wed, 8 Jan 2025, 23:36 John Southern, <linuxtarragon@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi Robin,
>
> I am afraid I do not know either, which is the most common or how I would
> go about identifying.
>
> Regards
> John
>
> On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 at 22:28, Robin Wood <robin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> > Which is the most common? Is there an easy way to tell? I want to try to
> > mock this up to see if I can get traffic going through my pfsense box.
> >
> > Robin
> >
> > On Wed, 8 Jan 2025, 22:21 John Southern, <linuxtarragon@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The Picky NAT does change the port depending on the source. The easy
> NAT
> > > keeps it open no matter what source IP is used.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 at 22:18, Robin Wood <robin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've got as far as the birthday problem so I might just need to read
> > some
> > > > more.
> > > >
> > > > Does Picky NAT not care what IP the traffic is coming from? The port
> is
> > > > just open for a short period of time for any connections? That seems
> > > quite
> > > > dangerous.
> > > >
> > > > Robin
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 8 Jan 2025, 22:13 John Southern, <linuxtarragon@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Robin,
> > > > >
> > > > > My understanding is you send out to the STUN server and your
> NATTing
> > > > router
> > > > > keeps that port linked back to your client1 for a short period.
> > > > > In that time client 2 can send info to it and get through.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your scenario you are using the Picky NAT where the port it
> gives
> > > when
> > > > > talking to the STUN server is different to the port it would want
> to
> > > use
> > > > > from client2.
> > > > > That is where the article then jumps down to the Birthday problem
> if
> > > one
> > > > of
> > > > > the NAT devices is an Easy NAT or having to use one of the three
> > > > protocols
> > > > > (UPnP-IGD, NAT-PMP or PCP) to find the port number if they are both
> > > > HardNAT
> > > > > devices and so not have to go via the TURN relay for all traffic.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think a TURN server is more likely to enable a connection but
> then
> > > has
> > > > to
> > > > > be able to handle all the traffic thrown at it. I think in
> Tailscales
> > > > > situation they are saying that by using all the tricks, they can
> > avoid
> > > > > having TURN servers in most cases.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are also TURNS servers for TCP traffic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > John
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 at 21:34, Robin Wood <
> robin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > I've read through most of this and I'm stuck on how STUN works. I
> > > > think I
> > > > > > must be missing something but this is where I'm having problems.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A NAT device handles connections by quads of source IP and port,
> > and
> > > > > > destination IP and port. So the client on the inside of my
> network
> > > > > > (client1) makes a call out to the STUN server, that records the
> > > > external
> > > > > IP
> > > > > > and port the connection is coming from and is then able to pass
> it
> > on
> > > > to
> > > > > > the other side of the connection (client2).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, if client2 tries to connect to client1 using that IP and
> port
> > > the
> > > > > NAT
> > > > > > box will see a different source IP, one that doesn't match any
> that
> > > it
> > > > > > knows, so it would just drop the traffic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know the idea is that once client1 has punched out of the NAT,
> > the
> > > > hole
> > > > > > is open so the other side is able to send packets back, but I can
> > > only
> > > > > see
> > > > > > that working when the other side is using the same IP as client1
> > > > started
> > > > > > talking to. If client2 tries to talk to the external IP and port
> > > > client1
> > > > > > used to talk to the STUN server it shouldn't work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is this the failing that TURN is used to handle? If so, then
> isn't
> > > STUN
> > > > > > dead in most situations? I'd imagine a lot of clients, especially
> > > VOIP,
> > > > > are
> > > > > > behind at least one layer of NAT.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To have written such a big article on STUN, it feels like I've
> > missed
> > > > > > something important that means it will work in a lot more
> > situations,
> > > > > but I
> > > > > > can't see what it is. Can anyone explain?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Robin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 at 11:56, Richard Ibbotson <
> > > richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://tailscale.com/blog/how-nat-traversal-works
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Might interest someone out there. How NAT works.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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