Re: [Sheflug] OT: Human nature, capitalism, socialism and (was Re: RMS Talk)

[Timothy Baldwin <nospam [at] comp.leeds.ac.uk>]

On Fri, 03 Nov 2000, Will Newton wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Timothy Baldwin wrote:
> 
> > There have been no other socialist republics, the so called USSR (along with
> > Cuba and Chille) was in fact state capitalist.
> 
> So basically you think the best idea is to use a system that has only been
> tried in one country for a period of 3 years.

Would you argue that the Jacobites were wrong to replace feudalism with
capitalism in the French Revolution, as it had not been tried?

Are you sugestting the best system to use is one that has been tried and is
on course to result in the total destruction of civilisation within 50 years
(an optimistitic estimate), probabally by an enviromental disaster (global
warming?), and has already done so in some parts of the world? This is a
characteristric of all class societes.

The choice is not between socialism and capitalism, but between
socailism and barberism.

[concerning capitalism]
>  
> > > Yes. If his software was very very good indeed. Theoretically.
> > > But then you are talking about a completely theoretical system of politics
> > > anyway.
> >
> > What do you say is completely theoretical about it?
> 
> Never successfully implemented. Ever.

But I was refering to capitalism, which was clear from the question that you
snipped.

[snip about pre-class societies]
 
> And the lads in mud huts had no chief? No belief system that gave them
> some unearthly god-head in place of a chief?

Certaintly no chief, and I think religion only occours in class societies. I
would make another quote here, but my source is at home.

[snip self]

> Computer simulations??? Of human behaviour? I happen to be lectured by one
> of the foremost AI researchers in the country. I'm sure he would be
> impressed by such a simulation.

No, of evolution.

I am trying to demolish the argument those pepole who try simplifiy the
argument this much.

> > capitalism, or that of Bill Gates, therefore one must conclude that personality
> > is not genetically determined. At least 2 books have been written in support of
> > this argument.
> 
> Nature vs. nurture. Not really my point. I'm sure Bill Gates is as good a
> man as you or I, but the way he has been brought up, the way he has lived
> his life, what he has seen (Nixon, Vietnam, the Reagan years, the Cold
> War) have all conditioned him as well as other people of his age.

i.e.  The capitalist system under which he has lived. You make my point better
than I can.

> To condem Gates or the capitalist system is to miss the point. It is human
> behaviour that has brought us this far, the same ideas have been repeated
> time and again throughout history,

I agree that capitalism in it's early years made technlogical advances that
socialism could not achive (due to lack of technology, causing resource
shortages, thereby making socialism impossible [1]), but it's period of
usefulness has passed.

> there is no "system" to smash, only

What if feudalism had not been smashed? Do you think capitalism has been around
for a long time?

> human nature. Human nature is not some romantic ideal that makes us
> superior to machines like in the movies, it is the animal instinct that
> makes us impulsive, destructive, but also creative. 

[snipped about Naomi Klein]

> Is she a Marxist? Is she a crusty turning up at "smash the evil fat
> cats" rallies? No. She is a smartly dressed young woman making a good
> living out of selling books. Not particularly good ones either. 

She is not a marxist.

What do you mean by crusty?

[1] Which is one of the contributing factors to the downfall of socialism in
Russia. Some of the others are due to the suprising [2] lack of socialist
revolutions elsewhere.

[2] Suprising in 1917, that is.

-- 
Timothy Baldwin

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